What Ukraine Offers That California Doesn’t Conversation with John Uke

Jul 12, 2018 140.3K Views 506 Comments

Originally from California, John Uke decided to pack it up from San Francisco and move to Kyiv, Ukraine. We chat about the pros and cons of living in Ukraine, why he chose Ukraine to run his business, and why in 2018 Ukraine is a fascinating place to live.

why’d you pack it up from California
why’d you move from San Francisco when
you’re in tech to Keith straight off the
bat not a little foreplay or anything
first zero for plan this Hank
so what was it was it whether you were
you missing so like was something not
right at home was it what was it like
why would you just get up and go it’s a
lot of reasons the biggest one that
initially sparked me is just knowing a
Ukrainian I was living in that hacker
hideout that sort of ghetto hacker house
and ghetto hacker house in San Francisco
yeah what do you mean get out in San
Francisco I mean like a girl came over
and she’s like there’s a guy smoking
heroin in the doorway I’m like oh like
don’t worry about him and so this is the
obviously the rough part of San
Francisco which there is and most people
have no clothes exactly like people who
live in San Francisco sometimes doesn’t
even know this place exists right she
met a Ukrainian in there
yes I met Andre the the first night he’s
out on the street right there when I
walk in and he says he wasn’t doing
crack or anything
LSD LSD seriously eyeballs are huge he’s
like you want to go burn Christmas trees
on the beach like so that this was your
first introduction Ukraine through Andre
yeah this guy was bugged out in LSD is a
[ __ ] genius
like later that night we’re hanging out
in the common room seven or eight of us
and he has his desktop set up there he’s
typing so fast and we’re laughing joking
and suddenly the typing stops so we all
like look over it Andre he’s like I
fixed a bug and we’re like yeah because
you came from San Diego which is warm
sunny nice beaches so okay there’s
start-up issues in San Francisco but
what else would like spark you to make
such a drastic move you never even been
to this part of the yeah
is one my don was really cool I was
living with Andre when my don was
happening when that was totally new for
me and seeing people on the streets with
like shields and helmets and fire like
that’s something that we don’t ever have
an America like at all and not in 1865
just noticed I’m oh yeah right oh yeah
over a hundred years Civil War and so I
actually admired the Ukrainians because
it sounded like they were essentially
betrayed and they were pissed off and
they’re standing up for themselves right
and to do those kinds of things you have
to be brave you have to like care about
yourself and about your country
and those people are kind of like heroes
to me and so on another level I thought
that Ukrainians are just cool people
like I admired them and so that’s
another thing that triggered me to go
there another one is just knowing
Andrzej and liking him as a person and
he has kind of some of the esoteric
almight and hippie vibes a little bit as
well that I like if he’s from here then
the other people like that from here and
so I knew it do you likely that enjoy
people and have friends and stuff okay
another reason is girls just liking
women that’s something that’s
automatically going to be attractive
here it’s definitely a factor but it’s
hard to separate everything out together
like a hundred percent it wasn’t what
drove me here really when you’re adding
all the calculations they just added up
to a level where despite having a good
life back home and not needing to make a
move and all the risk and possible
discomfort the calculation just seems
kind of easy and I have a big goal and
I’m pretty ambitious and I know that in
order to do those things I have to push
my comfort zone and I have to play my
cards right to me it doesn’t sound crazy
but I think to a lot of Ukrainians or
Americans it’s pretty drastic well then
you backed it up because even though it
made sense you had been in Ukraine you
loved the country and you spoke highly
of it in our friend group we had some
Ukrainian Russian Slavic people that I
liked yeah and they just seemed like
cool people that are like tough they’re
smart they’re there’s
it’s capable you didn’t feel any
nervousness of leaving home coming to
here there was no there was no like
apprehension or like I had walked me
through it I had a return ticket okay so
coming to here right the day I’m about
to leave I found out that the Turkish
government is being overthrown or having
revolution and I’m flying gradually
through Istanbul and number 2060s so
like if you believe in like signs or
anything I don’t really but it’s just
seem like that’s when that was here the
art the airport was bombed out – yeah it
was literally like right after their
part got bombed that’s supposed to be
there and I’m like huh and then oh well
we shouldn’t kicking off so you came
here you landed in booties pull the
airport like what were the what were the
thoughts where were the emotions running
through your head we were like hell yeah
I’m on to this new challenge where were
you like oh [ __ ] what am I doing here or
what was it like I was really happy to
see free Wi-Fi that’s like really cool
free Wi-Fi in the air yeah so many more
than all the places don’t have free
Wi-Fi true I got in a taxi drivers
asking for five hundred Rivas whatever
that is and I double-checked it by
cross-referencing another taxi for the
ride and they also said five hundred
semi-cool I know you’re not being ripped
off and it turned out I was big but yeah
so you you got into the city centre do
you have somewhere to go or where were
you going so Andres company is taking
off a lot and he has an employee who was
gonna host me and so I got dropped off
at her place
it was a pretty warm welcome very cool
person an attractive female programmer
is something that’s not very common in
America as well which is just like a
sort of nice landing here it’s not
always the case that you go to a new
country and like everybody’s down to
just help you right and that was just
really welcoming that’s what you put out
to the world is what you get back or you
think honestly here people just are open
and give more I think it’s both I think
people here don’t count time like in
America in America right right there’s a
little bit more stress especially San
Francisco because things are moving so
fast it’s like if you’re not growing
you’re dying I think there’s like
overall in the u.s. there’s and anxiety
in the culture of like it’s this life
deferment mentality of like you got a
young you got in five years I’ll be
doing this in retirement time I’ll be
doing this right and that doesn’t exist
here a time is money over there in the
air is second discounted for yes yeah
it’s not counted people are more patient
they enjoy conversations for the sake of
conversations a little more it seems
like people have less health care your
motives its overall just more relaxing
and I’ve noticed myself by being here
I’ve become more relaxed and it just
seems like a more genuine real way to
live life it on some levels being here
compared to America reminds me of being
a child in some ways in a good way
where time seems to stop a little bit
more I can go into an abandoned building
and like hang out laws seem a little bit
more flexible whereas in America if I go
in the bendin building it’s like a big
deal and really bad right the world’s
more fresh and interesting and here
every block is its own unique adventure
in America all the blocks are wow
there’s like a McDonald’s in a subway
and the Macy’s right here I’ve seen a
thousand of those before and they’re all
the same in Ukraine there’s a lot more
interesting stuff going on like what
else was going through your like okay
I’m just gonna do a week here a year
here like what do you lose something I
about two weeks two and a half weeks I
had a return ticket back and I was like
all right I’m going to hire a team of
developers first step and then figure it
out from there and at the same time I
wanted to explore the city and decide if
this is the place that I want to move
because I knew that if I could move here
it’d be more effective being here being
able to operate and so in a way you’re
like on a scouting trip – yeah if it’s
like you wanted to live work and work
pleasure in a way like I was trying to
enjoy the city but for the sake of
knowing if I could work here and I
really liked it there was so much raw
stuff I got on couchsurfing before
coming here yeah and normally a guy on
couch surfing is like hey Kai standard
couch take a standard house 20 30 people
or finally somebody says yes here I made
a an advertisement or just some sort of
post and about 30 people reached out to
offer to host me like 30 reached out to
me Wow and that’s like I got thousand
times different from the other places I
find the Ukrainians super open to
foreigners like they’re very open-minded
yet to guests and people coming here for
the most part and it made me feel
welcome just these people who are
interested to hang out and to talk and
to show me around you got to be
miserable to uproot up route your life
completely and go to a different part of
the world or what is it I could answer
this question – but you go for it I
wasn’t sure but it became pretty clear
pretty quickly that this place just
seems so much more real and authentic I
felt like there’s a little piece of
humanity that’s missing in California
that I’ve found here
I feel more alive here and
it’s not just that it’s good for
business like even if game trees blowing
up I mean that’s blowing up in a good
way yeah blowing up a native way that’s
it’s important for me like that that
that’s I see that as a path to my
ultimate goals but I’m gonna try to bias
staying here however much possible I’ve
kind of fall in love with the country I
want to promote the country I hope that
the connect Ukraine festival about
showcasing some of the best things that
Ukraine has to offer to foreigners to
invest in the country and get it more on
the international scene one of the
biggest challenges is that about half of
the apartments were fake and there were
just a statements phishing to get people
to visit or to get people’s contact
information like literally about 50% of
the listings are just straight-up fake
which I think should be highly regulated
and illegal and some very frustrating as
I’ve moved a few times now different
apartments and every time it’s just such
a pain in the ass can excited seeing the
pictures in the price and then realize
that they’re just fishing like that
should not be allowed so that that’s a
big challenge what else was a challenge
so or what were the big challenges when
you moved in so we live together and
you’re like Duke Ukraine’s awesome I’ve
coming in save that extra room and so I
ever being beat it out for a little bit
yeah and there were those digital nomads
cruising through their blogging
traveling a lot I thought they’d be a
bit tough from living that kind of
lifestyle but the second that the hot
water cut out right which was totally
unexpected never seen that in America
but they were flipping out without hot
water yeah like a long time ago hot
water wasn’t even a thing and I take
cold showers just because sometimes but
for them that was like a major
inconvenience so that was like in the
middle of the summer too wise yeah and
that made me it’s one of the things I
noticed about the difference between
Americans and Ukrainians is that here
you don’t expect perfect comfort all the
right right right whereas they’re
Americans like they kind of reacted it
was almost like as almost embarrassed by
how spoiled they were that just some
cold water was such a big deal right
like like like at the forefront of their
these creature conference and then
everything comes in behind that or
something right yeah and to me it’s like
I hardly even noticed dude I mean okay
so if you live here and I’m sure the
cold water thing gets old if it lasts
for a long time say in the summer in
your apartment but I honestly I
seriously think that stuff is good for
you because it breaks you out of it’s
like Ramadan in Islam right like you
have to fast you have to abstain from
sex you have to do all these things that
you normally do you have to withstand
from all these things right and then
when you get those things back it feels
great and you appreciate them and I
honestly feel like the few times the
Power has gone out actually it’s only
happened like twice and a little over a
year my girlfriend I put the candles on
it was super cool or the cold shower
thing I actually don’t mind really at
all so I think these like these breaks
in the comfort at the end of the day are
actually a good thing I mean if we’re
talking about these little things we’re
talking about right now I remember when
I first moved in your place because we
lived together what two months
she came barging through the door
started yelling at you for money in
Russian don’t know that word she saying
and she’s yelling at me as if I
understand something I guess that’s your
fault right like cuz you’re in Ukrainian
you don’t speak the language that’s our
fault really right but in that would get
you at the beginning you’re not gonna
get the language but what she did was
like it’s like that American guy in
Italy you ever seen that guy with this
the White Sox pulled up to the knee and
the shorts on and someone doesn’t
understand him so he starts speaking
louder and slower it and I’m like hey
Rick no matter how loud and slowly you
speak if somebody doesn’t understand the
language they won’t get it and that’s
how she was – she was just like but not
that slow knots emotional outburst
emotional outburst and she wanted money
and you had a stack of hundreds in your
hands like here’s the money but she just
wanted to rip you apart for the reason
he brought up our translator at that
time and I asked the translator like why
is she yelling and he was like oh she
thought you weren’t gonna pay and I’m
like well clearly the money is here
right now why she’s still angry he’s
like oh she just had a long flight from
Chicago and it’s like
I refuse acting like a spoiled
five-year-old child cranky you can’t
like yell at people because you just
want a place where they have what you
want you feel like you’ve been taken
advantage of here like just by her like
by a lot of people mostly just her
I think the landlord’s here a little bit
sketchier than I’m used to in America
and America there’s a lot of rights for
the people staying the apartments
especially a little bit was clean and
professional but here I feel like at
least the property owners I’ve dealt
with tend to try to be really cheap and
cut corners whenever and however they
can what else anything else the
interiors of some of the buildings here
look like the interiors of gothic
rundown Punk
party and like the entryway right yeah
and the elevators and stairways the
buildings are beautiful from the
exterior and the insides can be
beautiful but the common areas look like
abandoned buildings yeah yet like going
into your place so it’s like be in a
nice part of the city it looks beautiful
on the outside and when I go in ear
place like if I was in Latin America I
would be fearful of my life because you
see the graffiti all the cigarette butts
the trash you’re like this is not a safe
place to be but it’s sort of normal here
I think for a lot of apartment blocks
and the last place I lived as well as
right in the last place but then you get
on the elevator which I don’t think
there’s any bigger threats in this
country other than these Sylvia error
elevators seriously I think that’s if I
die here that’s how it’s gonna happen on
one of those elevators I’ve had a few
experiences where I I definitely felt
more scared than any rollercoaster or
fun thrill-seeking ride just it’s up
there with skydiving to be honest when
the elevator comes down and like jolts
and it doesn’t really go on the like the
level of the floor you’re getting off on
I don’t know that that to me is one of
my biggest fears so okay what about this
it’s like a metaphor for this country I
find like it’s not always on the surface
but once you get inside it opens up and
shows its true self or its better self
in those dramas those entryways are
really grungy and dirty but then you go
into perhaps an apartment after like
three locks or a log through a
bomb-proof door or two doors or two
doors and then it’s a different world
inside and this kind of reminds me of
that where yeah they might not have as
good infrastructure but people there get
by and they’re happy and in America we
have infrastructure ever then people
just take it for granted and it’s like
there’s no point in even having it
because it’s not making your life better
because it doesn’t affect your happiness
once you’re used to it
hmm so do you think the whole goal is
that is your happiness that’s that
should be your goal in life somewhat I
think that like the the happiness is
always relative where you get used to
things you’re you’re big on this about
going to Oscar panco like you know that
it’s so by going somewhere like that
it’s gonna be hard but you’re gonna
appreciate other things more because of
dude that experience will go down I
think when I’m old and I’m dying like
that will flash through my head is one
of the coolest experiences of my life
I’m serious like that was a very
impressionable meaningful experience and
I was just back there I visited the
family it’s like a second family I now
have in Ukraine which is amazing I feel
way more connected to here because of
that and from the traditional like human
point of view you should have been
miserable that should have been one of
the worst experiences of your life
because you went down in lifestyle
arranged more I mean I’d hire higher
highs and some lower levels I think
that’s Ukraine in general like my
emotions range more in this country like
pork cheeks and I just try to look at
everything as an optimist but like
definitely harder valley sometimes you
look out the window and the sky’s fusing
to the ground and it looks bleak but it
makes it makes it all more interesting I
think like you think too right and I
think it’s also different like we have
whenever you’re doing something
different so if I was from Ukraine if I
was young from Ukraine I probably want
to go to the States at least for a
little bit to check it out or Western
Europe just to see because I’m curious
I’m a curious person but yeah I think
when you level things up you balance
things out like you’re talking in the
beginning like okay this this that for
me it works well here and home I have a
good life in the u.s. I mean I saw the
business there I have family friends
there’s tons of opportunity it’s a
beautiful country
but I know it I know how it works
there’s no my curiosity is not peaked at
all I know it’s around every you know
like you know it’s around every turn
you know how its gonna operate you know
the language you know the behavioral
isms here’s like a little bit of an
adventure in the jungle you know what I
mean and like you’re swinging from some
ropes sometimes and you don’t know
exactly where you gonna land literally
don’t know what’s coming around the
corner whereas in America you can kind
of predict pretty comfortably what’s
going to be around the corner because
there’s more time I mean it’s not to say
people aren’t working long schedules are
busy or super stressed but it’s
different I can’t really put a thumb on
it but it’s different in the sense that
in general people have more
introspection time they look more into
deeper things and deeper thoughts I’m
speaking in generalities where in the
u.s. it feels more like a hamster wheel
you’re constantly running running around
forward which is great for some things
is great for innovation it’s great for
startups it’s great for progressing
business right
what is it lead to overall happiness in
life that’s a different question I don’t
know yeah and I think you’re touching on
an important point about in America
having that specialization division of
labor economics 101 but here people know
literature philosophy history so much
stuff way better than the average
American and for somebody myself like I
really enjoy liberal arts when I was in
university I went to a pure business
school and half the school was just like
what’s the point of learning this if it
doesn’t make money right people here
wouldn’t say that right
poets are put up on a pedestal here
that’s like I never even knew that
people still appreciated poets I thought
that was something like hundreds of
years ago
okay literally there were statues of
poets and there are presidents in the
city I remember when I visit you the the
first time I was talking to some I think
it was like 23 years old we’re talking
about the FARC in Colombia right the
Revolutionary Guard we’re talking about
geopolitics we’re talking about art
we’re talking about surrealism we’re
talking about literature we’re talking
about life philosophy and in general
people have a wider reach of knowledge
maybe that’s just Keith I don’t know but
in the capital it feels that way we’re
in America if you want to survive you
have to specialize like crazy like I
guarantee you in the US there’s the guy
that knows spoons better than anyone has
devoted his life to spoons he knows
everything that no one’s gonna touch him
in that space right but he might not
know where Ukraine is on a map or other
basic knowledge right my dad is a
flashlight guy he literally has probably
a couple dozen patents just related to
flashlights okay so how’s someone gonna
compete with that in the US people are
comfortable really comfortable and
comfortable people don’t do that much
and yeah there are a lot of people not
comfortable though man there’s a there
are a lot of poor people in the US
there’s a lot of drug issues that there
are a lot of people on the street
they’re way more homeless people on the
streets of San Francisco then Keith and
I’m straining friends and they they have
a hard time believing that but yeah in
the tech center of you know Google
Facebook Yelp all these all these
companies YouTube it’s like here is way
more sound as far as like not as many
people are falling through the cracks or
maybe they remove them from the streets
maybe they put them somewhere I don’t
know thanks nothing else you just don’t
see it we’re in the old city center
obviously but in the part of San
it’s full of bums and bums have taken
over kind of scary
there’s [ __ ] that comes in other
ways but the [ __ ] has really dropped
down you know it’s like people trying to
impress others I feel like nobody’s
really trying to impress that sense
something I’ve learned to appreciate
here a lot that I didn’t know I was
gonna appreciate so much right not much
of a bubble kind of person like I know
for example a Russian oligarch Sutton
that I was friends with the University
of still friends with yeah and he
prefers the life in Newport Beach where
he’s living in kind of comfort and
there’s nothing like too interesting
going on and he loves the bubble like he
consciously doesn’t like seeing antique
old buildings that are kind of rustic
and a lot of character
maybe it’s cuz he grew up with it maybe
we’re just somehow different and that’s
how you grew up though right somewhat
yeah I grew up in the bub on that on
that side yeah I grew up in Del Mar San
Diego which is like one of the most
bubbly places in the world doesn’t get
more generic than that does it but you
you feel like there’s a greater calling
in you to get out of it yes and I think
also right now the worlds in a weird
state where traditionally people want to
maintain the status quo maintain the
bubble but I think the Millennial is now
more than usual or starting to sense
that it’s time for something new so I
think there’s a higher proportion of
people right now that are sort of waking
up to new possibilities of drastically
different things that before it would be
completely inconceivable and crazy hmm
but there’s another thing about you I
think people should know and something
you’ve always been proud to tell or you
make it very clear to the world that
you’re polyamorous right many lovers
yeah so walk me through that man you
could be because you’re looking you’re
going from in that sense the most
liberal open part of the world for that
way of life right polyamory many lovers
in San Francisco there are a lot of
swinger couples right that’s popular
there to sex clubs sex dungeons like sex
parties dungeons yeah some star you had
a relationship there that was
polyamorous you had to be polyamorous
okay see come to this part of the world
the former Soviet Union were values are
more traditional than San Francisco I
polyamory would not fly where I grew up
like that would look beaten be looked
out upon nature 99.9% of the people I
know man I could say that define it
define it so other people that might not
know what it is
so poly means many Emory means love so
it’s many loves it’s a essentially the
idea that love doesn’t have to be
limited to one person it doesn’t have to
be monopolized or held
and it’s possible to have more fluid
relationships or more complex
relationships than just one man one
woman or one man one man or whatever
it’s just the idea that you don’t have
to abide by this social custom its I
think it’s better for some people it’s
not as good for others but ultimately
I’m pretty sure that 99% of our
evolution that’s how we grew up so it’s
not something too crazy and I think it’s
unfair to the people where that comes
more naturally to that that should be an
option for them well I think it’s
honesty right like you’ve always been
from what I’ve known of you you’ve
always been straight up you’ve been like
if you’re on a date you tell the girl
you’re polyamorous right yeah from the
get-go I won’t bring it up like the
first thing I say to them sometimes
they’ll know ahead of time other times
I’ll bring it up at a tactical moment
just because it’s so taboo here that I
really have to frame it like I can say
the exact same information to somebody
and that same person could perceive it
as like oh this person is a horrible
monster or oh that’s actually really
interesting and cool so I can’t just be
non-tactical about it especially with
women here who are bred from day one to
get married and have kids as young as
possible and for even me it was a big
process of having to learn having to
mature and grow to be able to manage
that and it’s all about trust and
communication at the end of the day if
you’re being sneaky about stuff for
nothing for word about things that
create suspicion jealousy there’s
mysteries that people want to fill in
the blanks and they’re uncomfortable
until they know things it’s fair to say
there’s a lot of polyamory going on here
or anywhere really it’s just not it’s
not being spoken right like how many
people have you met that night sheet on
her part at least half of guys here are
cheating on their partners from what I
can tell which is on kind of a lot so I
think Wes I don’t know that many people
who achieve at home they’ll break up or
something but here it’s like almost seem
standard or not a big deal and so in jet
like with that observation how you’re
saying half the male population is
in UK well they’re having open
relationships where they can sleep with
other people it’s kind of like a cousin
of polyamory and you could have
polyamory where you can’t sleep with
other people but only partners and then
it but the thing is there’s no black and
white answer to it because it’s
different for everybody some person
could be polyamorous and being a Mogan
monogamous relationship their whole life
what a day believe in the opportunity
that if they met somebody else that
allowed to explore that would you say
it’s a challenge for you here oh yeah
right it’s it’s not something I can’t do
it’s for me and this is just me speaking
from my perspective right now but it
almost feels like some level of
enlightenment or once you get there you
can’t go backwards
and while polyamory is something I never
imagined in my whole life I ever even
like considered or thought of as real I
mean my great-grandfather had a wife
went away on like a war campaign came
back with like a second wife and more
kids and back then that was normal in
Ottoman Empire the first wife like
poisoned the second wife and the kids
that was my interpretation of like
multiple why this is like that stuff
happens so I never even like really
considered it a reality but being in the
Bay Area on the dating site OkCupid I
noticed there was a high correlation
between people I thought were like
interesting and like confident or sort
of like very progressive in this concept
and just over time it was like huh that
seems like it makes sense I don’t know
people like that but logically it seems
like a way that people should be so
you’re okay if you’re polyamorous you’re
okay with your partner going with other
yeah I’ll still have jealousy but over
time it’s something that I’ve gotten to
curb more I went to Burning Man took
like a workshop on overcoming jealousy
talking to people because a prior
partner Mason she was naturally
polyamorous ever since she was 12 13 it
just made sense to her and that was a
good role model was being with her
because she was older than me and had
been polyamorous for many years and
seeing it functional like she was
married has
very happy functional family and having
that experience of like getting to know
the husband and actually thinking is a
really cool guy and wait wait you got to
know the hutt she was married had kids
and you got into a relationship with her
it was not something I ever planned or
imagined in my life that I would be
standing before girlfriend’s kids who
are like I end up close to my age and
the husband was cool with this he was
and it’s all about people’s needs like
for her she requires a lot of like
emotional death and denied dynamism he’s
a more stable person that doesn’t have a
lot of complicated needs and so she
appreciates that in him but it doesn’t
like meet those other needs your options
are to cheat or break up or you can be
polyamorous and have everything well so
he was okay with you coming into the
household and spending time with his
wife it sounds crazy and it was [ __ ]
terrifying going in there like beep
meeting with the first time he is this
like senior software engineer but he
does like martial arts has like tattoos
and stuff is a little intimidating but I
didn’t ever get a single negative vibe
from him like literally ever I he’s just
like such an awesome guy so if you’re
saying it’s a level of enlightenment
then I don’t know because I would not
for example my girlfriend if she went
with together no way I could ever do
level of enlightenment for some people
some people I think just aren’t
hardwired to ever be polyamorous
but for some people who can it’s still
gonna be a difficult journey I had times
where I was so stressed out so much
anxiety some of the worst in my life
because of polyamory but it gets easier
and easier as time goes on I dated a
porn star for a little while and that
made some of it easier knowing that she
was madly in love with me and even
though she’d share her body with others
II born star madly in love with everyone
know what I mean a B she can act it on
camera but that was really stressful
like the first time a friend took me out
of the house and he’s like you need to
get your mind off this and we went out
around the city doing stuff just because
I wouldn’t be pacing and constantly
anxious the first time it she was out on
a shoot but I think that warmed me up to
it a little bit knowing that sex and
love aren’t the same thing
sex and love are not the sanity but they
don’t have to be but isn’t it so much
better if you’re having sex with the
woman you love yes and no like yes it
can be but that doesn’t mean you can’t
appreciate other kinds of things you
could think like Oreo cookie milkshakes
are the best kind of milkshake
that doesn’t mean you only ever want to
have or your cookie milkshakes for your
something you’ll grow out of you’ll get
older and you’re like that doesn’t
interest me
I think it’s possible but at this point
it doesn’t seem like it’s something as
possible hey who knows ultimately to me
polyamory has been really nice because
one I have a strong need for adventure
curiosity variety and on the other hand
just like needing fulfillment like on
the one hand I want somebody really in
the moment
playful visual somebody that can be a
very similar opposite to me that I can
appreciate those parts of life through
her but at the same time I also want
somebody who’s sort of a partner in
crime somebody who has a similar
alignment and vision
we can strategize about a lot of
subjecting to go for the things that I
want and if I’m not I’m just gonna be
it’s about stayin true yourself yeah
keeping real and if I’m not treated
myself probably gonna cheat get divorced
have like dark thoughts but having
everything being honest and open as I
think a much cleaner easier way to live
so what um tell me about the journey
you’ve had here with building a
development team why you’d come here to
do it because you were on the front
lines of tech in San Francisco so it
seems a bit counterintuitive that you’d
come to Ukraine to start your tech
company when that’s pretty much where
it’s all happening right now yeah it’s
hard at first because a little bit of
language barrier and also just not
knowing a lot of people not knowing
where do I post jobs but why why man why
would you do it here I would open a
company here because what you have and
you got your team going here the people
the developers in Ukraine are smart
they’re creative but they work at prices
that are way more affordable than San
Francisco or California for equal price
it’s just simple supply demand business
101 and especially as a start-up those
things matter extra because unlike
who has basically infinite money to
throw around or Apple who’s sitting on
tens of billions of dollars right I
start up by its nature and your biggest
weakness is that it just doesn’t have
all the cash and resources
I’ve worked with people in China and
India and a lot of other countries and a
lot of the times if there’s something
not in the specifications they just
won’t do it
like if it’s obvious there should be a
back button they just won’t put it in
but here people will push back we’ll add
things that are common sense you’re more
intuitive yes and I appreciate that a
lot where I’m not much of a micro
manager a big-picture thinker and I
can’t do all the details and think of
everything else and a start-up so having
people here that are more like
co-founders than just cheap labor is
really nice right
and your team is all I mean it helps for
you that you’re an industry that a lot
of young people like which is gaming so
your team seems to me from what I’ve
talked to my talked to excluding Igor
who City quits by the way you weren’t
around but they seem pretty fired up and
passionate about the project because
they love gaming and you’re providing
you’re providing that outlet it’s really
fortunate to be doing that space but
overall what I’m working on is a much
bigger vision than just gaming the
gaming is a good entry point and there’s
a lot of things in life that there’s a
lot of correlations like there’s certain
kinds of games that you’ll like certain
kinds of people you’ll have different
kinds relationship so if there’s a lot
of algorithms based on these buckets
it’s not a hard science but it sees so
much but my girlfriend’s personality
type matches my personality type oh you
think for example you’re an extrovert
and she’s an introvert that’s pretty
common and it seems like it’s counter to
a lot of the conventional wisdom like be
with somebody the same as you’re similar
to you right but a nice thing is that
you like being more talkative and if
there’s somebody more quiet who will
listening a bit more than that creates a
good synergy just a good city there’s no
competition between us in anything like
I fill in where she’s not there she
fills in where I’m not you know yeah
and so this stuff’s really useful
considering how important people in
communication and meeting people are in
our lives it’s something that gets very
distantly small amounts of attention and
so a lot of what game tree is about is
using this knowledge to educate us about
ourselves our predispositions knowing
the lens the microscopes the telescopes
that we’re seeing the world through then
having clear understanding of ourselves
power bias to view other people how
other people are viewed how to
appreciate those kinds of people there’s
just so many levels and so through your
app someone’s interest in the game and
they can meet someone that has their
same personality type or a different
personality type at least they know and
they can connect with that person so
they can find specific kinds of people
saying like oh I have this friend group
but I want somebody who’s kind of like
this and you could actually filter and
find these exact kinds of people in ways
that you can never otherwise meet so
easily knowing this person Alice I
called you with gaming is especially
interesting because you can see what’s
fun for somebody that correlates highly
with their psychology not everybody has
the same definition of fun but as
children we play we grow and develop
through games and so in a way it’s a
great way to find friends build
relationships and continue growing and
there’s a strange social stigma right
now around that that makes that seem
less appropriate but at the same time
plays what makes people happy and
creates a lot of the most authentic
relationships what do you what do you
think of the art situation here I find
that where there’s a lot of emotions you
find a lot of the most interesting arts
a lot of the
the mid source material that creates
poetry that creates analogies comes from
our feelings and because he cranes in a
place where there’s such stark contrast
and there’s revolutions and there’s a
war going on that this is a place that
has a lot of emotions and so I think
that that’s the reason why there’s so
many beautiful installations and you’re
feeding and people trying to express all
these things that they’re feeling yeah I
find up here another culture that is
this I noticed in Egypt after revolution
the modern art museum the Contemporary
Art Museum there was mind-blowing it was
all from the youth all art from the
youth it’s similar to the arts different
but it’s similar in the sense that you
have the youth doing a ton of at least
these art installations there aren’t a
lot of museums here there are a few but
it’s definitely it’s it’s coming out of
them which is cool to see on the streets
I feel like Southern California is
famous for art like San Diego but the
art there is a lot of galleries and
putting your painting is up and it’s
like I want to be an artist so I can
paint things but I feel like the artists
it’s like I have to express something
and I’m gonna do it however I can and
that creates a really authentic raw very
easy to appreciate in motion a rich kind
of art that is like fascinating that did
not expect here well I think you get to
a point in the human experience where
you have to get what’s inside of you out
or it kills you so for example nothing I
– right now brings me monetary reward
like this or like writing but I have to
get it out of me or there’s like this
pent-up frustration inside we’re taught
to be consumers who are a consumer
society but every person is just as much
a creator as a consumer and it sucks
when the most fun part of life is sort
of swept under the rug where suddenly
instead of being somebody’s making shoes
for your friends you’re a person in
Southeast Asia working in a shoe factory
with like harsh conditions living
miserably but do you there’s also a
level to where if you consume too much
and don’t create enough there’s a gap
there’s a void right in a future I think
them for me the more I create the better
I feel actions and energy to get energy
right you well one thing that I one
thing I’m really excited about what a
mystery is that by giving personalized
recommendations based on people’s tastes
and on their psychologies
you can discover the really nice art
that really speaks to you the most right
that you might never know about through
all the mainstream large-scale
advertising and at the same time it’s a
big opportunity possibly an
unprecedented opportunity for small
artists to actually make a living or to
get some traction doing the things that
they’re doing whether you’re making
films or fashion or video games you
can’t afford to do the Triple A
advertising because it’s a really niche
product to the production budget isn’t
there but if through games tree and
eventually leads to expanding this to be
recommendations for all things it’s
actually a massive opportunity for
artists to make a living doing the
things they love and for people to
consume like higher levels of content
where they can actually even engage with
artists and have more real authentic
human connections ok Ukraine is let’s
face it it’s known in the world for
corruption from the top levels I think
it permeates all the way through society
here as a start-up founder as a person
new to this this country have you dealt
with any issues as far as corruption
goes fortunately it’s been a complete
yeah very luckily but I do know it
exists and I have heard instances and I
know Ukrainians who it affects and it
seems to really suck a lot for example I
know somebody whose
family home yeah is falling apart
there’s cracks in the wall refrigerator
stopped working because they’re building
a giant illegal structure that’s not
zoned for the area and her family
complained to every possible agency like
the police like all the government
institutions and nobody was doing
anything and eventually the police
responded and said just drop it there’s
people powerful people building this and
it’s good if you just don’t do anything
about it and some activists like a local
activist got involved in was helping
uh-huh and her tires got slashed and her
cat was found dead in their backyard
murdered and that’s so [ __ ] up that
you have very blatant transgressions of
the law where everybody is just turning
the other cheek that doesn’t happen in
America for all of our vices we have
like legal corruption but just to have
something so blatantly illegal going on
is really infuriating that that people
are getting away with stuff like that
but it doesn’t affect you correct
yeah like starting the company here
there’s I’ve had no issues of anything
if you buy a water or something at the
store people are ripping oh they don’t
even the babushka on the street that are
giving us flowers they could charge us
five times more for the flowers or at
least try thinking that were include
tourists but people here have a lot of
integrity and especially seeing that
contrast having gone to Sri Lanka where
people have more wealth that people here
tend to have a lot more civility yeah
it’s weird how that works in different
cultures so if you go to China or
it’s very blade and they’re gonna get
whatever they can add you and that’s
part of the culture it’s baked into the
culture even Vietnam had a law like farm
foreigners get charged more that was
eradicated but still in the mentality
here I haven’t dealt with it at all not
that I know of and I’m pretty on it know
the price is pretty well but I haven’t
dealt with anyone trying to rip me off
which is
cool when you’re in a country you don’t
like I think that’s the biggest
resistance when you’re an outsider
because there is some assimilation
process and will never fully be
assimilated will never be Ukrainian by
any stretch right even if you and I
speak perfect Ukrainian will never be
Ukrainian right and there’s a
assimilation or a welcoming by not
trying to rip you off in every
transaction when you get ripped off in
every transaction you make it’s just
like it makes you feel like an outsider
there’s no way around it here’s another
good point of this country they’re not
gonna deal with any radical
fundamentalist Islamic BS this is not
this is not an Isis is map key you
didn’t even another target here now like
Western Europe America where there’s
these cultural frictions there’s none of
that here I have to say it’s pretty
homogeneous it’s probably what 98% white
and Ukrainian I would guess something
like that it’s like there are no racial
issues just because there are no races
really that’s actually one of the perks
I think to working here it sounds
horribly politically incorrect to say
but it’s actually a lot easier to
operate a company where I don’t have to
be as concerned about there being like a
black person and like a Chinese person
and just like in every shot or every
picture yes so I think in this space we
live in let’s just call it a vacuum
because it well in a way it is we don’t
have to cohere to hole in expectations
in the cultural norms right it we’re not
Ukrainian and we never will be so you’re
in this space as a foreigner let’s I
think that’s why a lot of expats like it
some are escaping a lot are escaping
something right for sure
maybe I’m escaping the fact that
I don’t want to be around the same
conditions that have been around for a
long time they’re just not as
interesting right like I want the
adventure in my curiosity Pete and that
exists here where it doesn’t exist at
home anymore because I understand how
the thing works the system the language
what’s around the next turn you get how
it works here I don’t totally get it so
there’s mystery in that intrigue and
then I’m challenged so yeah I just find
like by being a foreigner in a country
like Ukraine you can live a very free
existence the marketing machine doesn’t
hit us right because I can’t read I
can’t read these Ukrainian ads right I
don’t watch TV like so none of these
messages like America’s the worst for
this right like well it’s the worst and
the best right it’s the best marketing
and advertising machine there is right
like and it’s so curated into our
society and the fabric of our everyday
life that you become sort of immune to
it right but also it’s constructing how
you sort of operate in a way and here
it’s like all that is removed like
there’s no marketing coming at me I
don’t know the big brands here I don’t
really care about distractions so many
less distractions and also shopping
shopping is an absolute nightmare here
right the big store here what is it
called methadone or something Metro I
don’t know one of the big-box shops is
like the Walmart right it’s so poorly
organized there’s like a fork in this
department and then half kilometer away
there’s another Fork right and it’s so
frustrating to shop in that I’d like I’m
I hope to never go again
and things are just there’s no Amazon
culture here there’s no purchasing
immediately some impulse purchase online
that’s showing up at your house that day
and you can return it if you want right
so like I hate shopping but all the
whole materialism thing is somewhat gone
like removed
something I do notice about people here
is there a lot of really talented
artists engineers creative types but
they’re missing the business and I don’t
know if it’s from the Soviet Union not
doing that or kind of being sighted with
Russia not accessing Western markets a
lot but people here build a lot of great
things that don’t make it out of the
country in America we have very few
products and companies that are coming
from Eastern Europe proportionate to how
much of the population of the West they
make up sure I think the American Dream
is the idea that your children can have
a better life than you have and that
even if you’re born poor you can rise up
and be somebody who’s very successful
and one side it’s still great for that I
really feel that it seems like it but is
if you look at like numbers comparing it
to like Scandinavia and Switzerland in a
lot of other countries America is
actually sliding down on that scale
quite a lot but we have this delusion
that a lot of the Republican Party puts
out where they they make people think
that things are individual people’s
false or that that dream is still alive
or that not taxing corporations are
doing all these things are good but
they’re just completely worried most
important word is where do the the big
innovation makers where did the
we’re did the guy that started whatsapp
from that’s from Ukraine where did he go
why does everyone go there if it’s so
terrible it’s the best ecosystem to
bring your idea it’s the best cultural
ecosystem to get money for it into
actually it’s the best market to bring
it out to the world my America has a lot
of risk takers it’s founded off
risk-taking the whole the whole design
of the place is risk-taking right people
with ADHD attention deficit hyperactive
disorder you are more likely to move
they’re more likely to invent things
America like half the population
practically has ADHD here most people
don’t even know what that is
they’ve recently proven with brain scans
that it’s actually like a disorder that
people have I don’t think it’s a
disorder it’s just a different way of
thinking that’s not as accustomed to
sitting at a desk and not memorizing
things it’s more about exploring the
world and being open or inventive but
that’s considered a mental handicap in
the way our system is but that’s sort of
thinking when you have more investors
more innovators more people who are
supporting entrepreneurs and thinking oh
that’s cool that you tried to take a
risk here you have a lot more people who
are like oh don’t take risks because if
there’s not a lotta more you’re then
here because a lot of people here they
don’t have strong business skills and
they don’t have a lot of strong
leadership skills in the past a lot of
people were persecuted or killed for
sticking out and I think that it
happened so much for so many years that
maybe it’s even suppressed an entire
generation for example my dawn instead
of ending up with a lot of change and a
lot of leaders coming out it was just
the same deck of cards shuffled in a
different order
and so in a way I feel like more
foreigners coming here even though it’s
kind of bad in that it’s not local it’s
actually really good for the country
because they’re gonna be bringing me not
just in money but they’re gonna be
mentoring and teaching these skills and
inspiring other people around them who
otherwise don’t have but I know country
person place has it all right so the
strong the strong skill sets here are
like you have strong math and science
scientists I’m speaking in generalities
right strong maths and Sciences
intelligent people I find them more
philosophical in general they can go
deeper in analytical thinking about
different issues approaching things from
different angles right in America is
better on the whole capital of something
obviously because it’s baked into the
DNA that’s what it’s built on right so
yeah if you can fuse those two together
I think you have something very powerful
young people here they’re very
optimistic a lot of them have very good
English Ukraine was talking about the
center of Keith yeah Ukraine’s the third
or fourth biggest outsourcing country in
the world for technology despite not
being the third or fourth biggest
population and that makes people here
have a lot more outward focus compared
to Russia where the average programmer
makes more money for example they have a
bigger internal culture and they have
their own supply and demand internally
the Ukraine is a lot more global and
that’s something that’s nice just having
a sort of mindset and with that comes I
think a lot of optimism you think it’s
more oh it’s an open-minded place I do a
lot of young people here hold very
similar opinions to me or put a lot of
San Franciscans a lot more than I think
from a place where not too long ago
women were and still are slightly but
being taught to get married and have
babies as soon as possible usually you
find that sort of a thing in third world
countries well it’s here for sure like
more than the heart of the Arab world
did more than Damascus when I spent time
the war more than Cairo more than I’d
say Istanbul like here there’s a
pressure on women to have children very
young I don’t know where that comes from
exactly it’s not everybody but I think
it does exist a fair amount I think a
lot of its from a lot of men dying
during the Soviet Union world war women
to where if so many of the men die from
different epidemics sure because men
disappeared I all the time
whatever whatever happens and then it
creates a lot more competition for men
and so a lot of the men here I think are
spoiled they’re taking care of a lot the
women work hard and the guys take it off
for granite and I think that’s part of
why women want western men is because
Western men I’ll try harder to please
them whereas otherwise of the guys sure
I’ve got incentivized because there’s a
disproportionate amount of woman and
they’ve been both brought up and bred to
take disproportionate care of the men so
actually a here the the person I’m a
psychology like a lot of it that I
follow the most is actually already
really famous it’s considered a science
and Eastern Europe which is known as
socionics here an interesting contrast
between it here and in the West is that
here it’s mostly is by women to know the
personality dynamics about who is a good
mate for them or what are the best
partners sure in the West it’s mostly
about jobs what are the jobs I could
have how does this apply to work
I think that really shows a lot about
the cultures about relationships and
happiness versus work in that it’s the
same framework it’s based on a Carl Jung
where essentially it’s about figuring
out how do people think what energizes
them and those by default become their
strongest tools and based on how we
think that’s how we’re gonna solve
problems how we’re gonna perceive the
world what’s fun to us but what I wasn’t
expecting as much is on the soft side
for example during my dawn I really
looked up to the Ukrainians thinking
like wow I really respect and admire
these guys they’re heroes
I like to imagine that I would be
somebody who could stand up during that
time but you never know but in America
that you don’t really have those sorts
of opportunities the most that’s gonna
happen is people clicking share on
Facebook and grumbling and having
circular conversations agreeing with all
their friends about something in bubbles
yeah America that was shaken up in 1865
that was the last time really but it has
it has its own stresses and weirdness
which is for example all these school
shootings that’s mental man like that
doesn’t exist in this part of the world
I haven’t heard of anyone walking in a
kid walking in with a semi-automatic and
just spraying bullets on other kids that
doesn’t exist I think that capitalism
was a great system that got us through a
time when there was scarcity but it’s
also a disease at this point any mental
illness can be considered a disease as
long as it’s not appropriate for the
current environment and so while
capitalism was a good system for our
past we’re in an age now we have global
camaraderie we have friends around the
world we have technology to make good
decisions lots of resources sure
suddenly we could start operating much
more efficiently starting to see our
neighbors more as friends caring about
strangers that according to capitalism
is kind of crazy where we’re taught that
every person is a competitor and a
battle for scarce goods but people don’t
actually have infinite wants and needs
they’re willing to sacrifice for other
people and in a place like Ukraine where
capitalism isn’t quite as pervasive I
think that’s what leads to a lot more of
the well-rounded curiosity about life
not counting minutes as much about
people just being more people to each
other on some levels being a lot more
real not putting on fake faces for first
impressions or to be like to climb
socially you get a lot of the hoarding
mentality unfortunately as well from
scarcity but because the capitalism yeah
especially in like the oligarchs who
hoarded money they sit on it they’re not
really investing it back into the
communities a whole lot but for the most
part I think that the people here while
nothing is good at marketing and
business because of less developed
capitalism are actually a little bit
happier in a lot of ways because of the
more relaxed connection to life that
they have because of it I totally I I
totally agree that’s I can’t explain
that to people here you just said it
perfectly but when I say like it’s less
just manic and anxious ridden nobody
believes me and the anxiety I think
comes in a different way there are more
stresses for basic needs I think for a
lot of the population but there still
doesn’t seem to be the bit manic battle
for time and one place to look at like
if you take a snapshot of a society look
at it parks right like are there people
normal people hanging out in the parks
right okay we can say San Francisco’s
got great parks and there’s society
hanging out in the parks but I’m gonna
say a snapshot of the u.s. in general
parks quite often have a lot of bums a
lot of feces it’s not a place for say
normal or educated say successful people
to hang out in and when you walk in the
parks here they’re super uplifting
for the most part uplifting positive
very humid experiences right like all
the guys playing chess is Shevchenko
Park right like all these old guys come
out and play chess and there’s and I
just watch sometimes and there’s just
there’s community in that or people
sitting on those chairs just conversing
and taking break is so much more life it
feels more human and where I feel the
San Francisco I love it and there’s so
many great things I’m saying what’s
better at worse but there’s more of that
that grind in that pull through a TV
screen you can see stay just happiness
through economics you can see people
having more stuff for working relatively
about the same amount but there are
those hidden costs America is very easy
to show tangibly like in an iPhone in
Facebook in these these movies that
people see on TV
there’s no way to show that feeling that
you just subscribed a little bit ago on
the streets
there’s no way to package that and ship
that off to show to another country you
have to either come here feel it or what
I’ve been trying to do it through my
content is like show it through stories
or write about it and like really
unearth what that is cuz again you can’t
put it in something you can touch taste
and feel in America we move around a lot
we get different jobs we’re kind of
fragmented we lose a lot of our tribes
and even our families I don’t think the
average American talks to their families
that much but in Ukraine I feel like
that base that not only gives you some
level of support but also a lot of love
in general necessary satisfaction for
human wellbeing is a lot stronger here a
lot of Americans the reason that they’re
trying to seem so happy and follow all
the latest health trends and everything
is because they feel sad and alone a lot
of that’s why I’m starting game tree is
it’s so hard to find that solid view for
friends if you’re moving around a lot
from place to place but I’ve noticed
that people here on average do have a
lot stronger bonds with their friends
and family and that’s something that’s
just at the end of the day when people
on their deathbed say is the most
important thing that’s true yeah well
said you wouldn’t go to a doctor here
and it’s it’s gonna cost like $13 in
America it’s gonna cost me a bribe and
he might be drunk there’s a possibility
of this health care here is much better
despite everything about this the health
care is better here if you need little
things if you need little things done
and to go to the into a doctor it’s
better here and it’s way more manageable
if I need brain surgery done my brain is
totally off I want to go to Stanford or
like the top Medical Center in the US
and it’s funny you say weed because that
I’ve one of the observations I noticed
early on most weed is like considered a
hard cure over here like drugs are put
in one category like heroin cocaine weed
are in one basket right and where we’re
from it’s legal right now you walk into
a store like just like you’re gonna buy
a bottle of alcohol you walk in you
choose what you want you pay the cashier
you get a bag and you leave right like
it’s like we’ve
it’s all perspective right and it’s all
how we’ve been conditioned so now we’re
conditioned in California or a handful
of other states in the US where it’s
completely okay to purchase in the open
it’s accepted here it’s not accepted at
all I’ve found and I smoke weed probably
five six times a year
I don’t even drink anymore but that’s
like my escape five six times a weed
have a little weed my personal purpose
is to help fix some things I see
fundamentally broken in society that are
universally broken any capitalist system
but that’s what led me here through
gaming tree the company that I’m
starting I see if i play my cards right
having a route that can help a lot of
people what I didn’t expect so much was
to actually fall in love with the
country itself with the people here
finding a home here and wanting to stay
here like that wasn’t as big a part of
the equation when I originally came here
yeah everybody loves an underdog myself
being no exception it’s like a universal
human trait and I think that Ukraine
just doesn’t get the fair share it has a
government that’s somewhat corrupt so
other countries don’t want to deal with
it it has Russia invading so it looks
like the place is at war and a hotplate
hot potato that nobody wants to touch
but the fact is that this place is a
real hidden gem the streets are clean
society is very civil the people are
creative and smart the prices aren’t
phenomenal to me this is literally the
best place in the world to be on a lot
of levels and that’s not something I
totally accept expected outside of a
business realm and so that’s what’s
really made this place a home for me and
somewhere that I’m actually continuing
to stay despite the potential to now
maybe go somewhere else and just manage
remotely when I first came here I was
half thinking I would build a team and
back home or go somewhere else right but
within a few days just seeing how raw
and real and how much potential is in
this place and how much beauty there is
that I wasn’t expecting has made me want
to be a Ukrainian myself it’s just
another way of why it would you you
wouldn’t get rid of your American side I
can’t because that’s where I’m from but
when I see somebody like Donald Trump
trumping around America if it’s a very
interesting ship it also like the
leadership here is pretty embarrassing
too that’s true but chumps like he’s
doing he’s like he’s an absolute
a lot of people are coming to Ukraine
for cheap prices and women and it kind
of reminds me of like a Vietnamese
brothel when you put it that way and
it’s kind of sad for me because the
people here have so much creativity and
brightness in them
and I somehow want people to know that
that’s not what it is for me even though
that’s such a clear thing that people
know about this place but I think that
this place really is special and has so
much more to offer sure I mean I lived
in Thailand in Bangkok
you know the stereotype of Bangkok right
yeah and I love the city and there is
that side of it there is that horde
outside to it but actually in Thai
culture it was seriously frowned upon
like it’s actually Thai culture in a way
is conservative and I lived in a
completely different universe on that
front and play I always saw people were
representing I mean people were like
referring to the Thais is this and how
that can really irritate a population
and how it misrepresents because there’s
different sides right where the package
tours go and Pattaya is gross
it’s disgusting like II can’t even
believe this [ __ ] happens on planet
Earth and then there’s other segments of
Thai society that are absolutely
beautiful and apart from that so I don’t
think Ukraine’s as extreme is that like
Thailand is an extreme example right but
yeah here there’s that extraction
mentality I think foreigners come in
just to extract and there’s also
foreigners that come in that actually
truly like and respect the culture for
what it is for me being polyamorous this
is a way worse place to be in San
Francisco even though the women are
known for being beautiful here automatic
disqualification like a lot of the time
you’re this polyamory sky where that
doesn’t really fly with women anywhere
in the world seriously and so you’re on
the frontlines of it in San Francisco
right and maybe there’s I would give
less than 1% of females are gonna be ok
with that then you take it to a
culturally conservative part of the
world and
yeah I think you’ve sort of come up to a
steel wall if you’re trying to be
polyamorous in Keith so that you put
yourself into well let’s just say a
harder climb then you’d have at home and
despite that I still love anything hold
you well dude I would like to recap this
in like a year and see where you’re at
because I think like I think when you
put yourself in a completely different
environment personal growth comes
exponentially I got feel a year in a
couple months here that’s all it’s been
I’ve grown in so many areas I’ve learned
so much I’ve been challenged into so
many different ways that if I was at
home it would have been like this much
growth and learning where heroes like
this much you’ve been a good bro in this
journey and if it wasn’t for you if we
didn’t have each other and neither of us
would be here I don’t think in a way
yeah not that we need each other to stay
here but the conversation started over a
breakfast and you were thinking of it
and I was supporting it and then you
planted the seed in my head and I came
in this in mind yeah after you yeah
exactly so right on brother
panel like made a nice little comfy
landing pad for you in the apartment
yeah you did it was like a 3 the hoos
like that what is that weapon where it’s
got the like the grappling hook or a pin
hook right and like I just came over on
the line and landed in you did all the
hard work so thanks man

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